Point five frisbee
On quick disc movement and quick decision making
Recently, I've been hearing the term "point five basketball"1. Point five basketball is the philosophy that within 0.5 seconds of catching the ball, you've decided whether you want to shoot, dribble, or pass. At the link in the previous sentence, there's a video of NBA star Steph Curry talking about point five basketball. He says:
If you held the ball for one second, that's a grenade and it blew up and you're done. Think about that...you have point-five seconds to make a decision, and that's when you start to get the dominoes to fall.
Those "dominoes" are, metaphorically, the defense being out of position. A first pass or drive or screen gets the defense slightly out of position. More quick passes and they're further and further behind, and then you score. But if you let that chain reaction of dominoes come to a halt, and the defense has the sliver of time they need to get set, your offense is back at square one—without any advantage over the defense.
The same is true in ultimate, as well. For example, a pass to the breakside can lead to more passes to the breakside, but only if cutters and throwers work quickly to move the disc before the defense catches up.
To play devil's advocate, this isn't as big a problem in ultimate frisbee as it is in basketball. Basketball’s shot clock means you have 24 seconds to generate the best shot you can. If slow decision making leads you to lose an advantage with 10 seconds left on the shot clock, you may not be able to generate a new advantage in those remaining few seconds. In ultimate, on the other hand, as long as you maintain possession you have infinite time to start generating a new offensive advantage if a previous advantage is lost.
But that doesn't mean the 'point five' concept is useless—the risk of a turnover rises with each pass, so good offenses care about converting advantages. Though it's possible for a slow-paced offense to make progress down the field, an offense that has more easy passes will be more efficient in the long run.
Here's another video that discusses the point five concept in basketball:
The narrator of the video explains:
The point five concept put enormous pressure on defenses to keep sliding and closing out (translation: to keep getting in a new position each time a pass/drive/cut is made). The pressure just keeps growing until [one player] loses his concentration and leaves his man open in the corner.
If you've watched Steph play basketball, you'll know he doesn't make every decision within 0.5 seconds. It's an ideal to strive towards, not a standard to meet at every moment. It's a reminder to always look for those opportunities, not a demand to never hold the ball (or disc) for more than half a second. Let's strive towards that ideal in ultimate, as well.
Point five frisbee has become a guiding philosophy for me over the last couple years. Although I've never heard the 'point five' terminology used in frisbee, similar ideas have been part of frisbee culture for a long time—though they've never quite made it to the point of being the dominant philosophy. Here are some notes on the history and future of the point five mentality in frisbee:
From the frisbee internet
As I've mentioned previously, one of the best ways to "break the mark" is to throw to the breakside before the mark ever gets set. In The Huddle, Issue #14: Breaking the Mark, Adam Sigelman says:
When most players think about breaking the mark, they envision a thrower throwing around or over a stationary mark. However, I'd argue that the majority of break throws in high level ultimate don't happen this way. Most breaks I see are simple forehands and backhands thrown in motion with the mark trailing behind the thrower.
Another Adam featured in the same issue, Adam Goff, makes a similar point:
Every time a team moves the disc, this changes the defense. It puts the defensive players out of position, if even for a short period of time...I need to be ready to take advantage of that chance...remember that the goal is not to "break the mark." The goal is to make it easy to score.
Although the “point five” terminology might be new to frisbee, the philosophy is anything but.
Fury, 4-second stall, quick-turn continuations
San Francisco Fury—perhaps the greatest club team ever—is known to practice with 4-second stall counts:
“I think it’s no secret that Fury has had the same core group of people for many, many years. I think that adds a lot to it,” said captain Kirstin Johnson. “And we’ve been working on our tempo — it has always been a point of emphasis since I joined the team in 2018. We practice with 4-second stall scrimmages, and we know we need to try to keep that tempo up all the time.”
Fury uses the term “tempo” (another example below of Fury using this word), similar to “playing with pace”, another term used in basketball.
One move you’ll see from players who understand the value of a point five mentality is what I’ll call a “quick turn continuation”: catching a dump/swing pass, and pivoting towards the breakside with urgency, knowing the opportunity for a break throw might only be there for a spit second.
I love this clip from 2023 Nationals of Fury's Opi Payne manufacturing an easy goal by already knowing where she wanted to throw the disc when she caught it. It's a perfect example of how playing fast can make things easy that wouldn't be easy later in the stall count (full sequence here):
I counted 24 frames between the time her hands first touched the disc and when the disc was clearly out of her hands. At 30 frames per second, that means she took 0.8 seconds to catch, pivot 90 degrees from the original direction she was facing, and release a throw. With her defender closing in quickly, she might not have gotten the pass off if it had taken any longer.
Remember what Adam Goff said above: Every time a team moves the disc...it puts the defensive players out of position, if even for a short period of time. This clip is a case in point: As a cutter, Opi's defender is defending on the open side (i.e. righty forehand side—closer to the bottom of the screen). But when Opi becomes a thrower, her defender is—momentarily—now on the wrong side to take away throws to the breakside. Opi takes advantage of this sliver of opportunity to throw an assist.
Here’s another example from Team USA’s Jonathan Nethercutt:
And another from another Fury star, Carolyn Finney (from here, 7:18):
She catches the pass and snaps immediately to the break side. No one happens to be open there, but she’s already looked breakside and then thrown back to the open side by stall 3 or so2.
From my blog
Quick decision making is in line with a number of concepts I've written about here before:
In Cut before the thrower catches it I highlighted how some of the best cuts require you to start cutting very early—early enough that the thrower can throw the disc as soon as they've caught it.
In Start considering your options as early as possible, I highlighted how the best players are using their footwork to get themselves ready to throw as soon as possible after catching the disc.
In Think about what your opponent is thinking, I pointed out that faster decision-making (even when it makes you uncomfortable) is a robust way to to succeed even when your opponent—who also has a brain—is trying their hardest.
I’ve talked a few times about release speed, for example here or here. In the book Spaced Out (more from it below), Mike Prada brings up Point Five basketball in a chapter that starts by…discussing individual skills like shooting form. Having “point five skills” enables playing “point five frisbee”.
The point five frisbee concept ties all these ideas together nicely.
Hex, Flow, Fury, Stall zero dumps, etc
I've linked to this Hive Ultimate video on the 'stall zero dump pass' many times:
If you've been following frisbee content online, you may know by now that the first question everyone asks about Hex is "does it work against a good defense?". For example, this is the 2nd comment below the video:
San Francisco Fury used this pass a number of times in their 2023 semifinal game linked above against Brute Squad. I hope no one is going to try to argue that Brute Squad isn't playing "proper defence"3!
If you like clicking on timestamped YouTube links, you can find examples of Fury using this pass: here, here, here, here, here (this is a beautiful set play, see embedded video below), here, here, here, and here.
And here is one from Brute Squad, for good measure. A number of these aren't exactly "dump" throws—many are thrown to the side, and a few even gain some yards. But they're all examples of Fury players not even bothering to fully turn and face downfield before passing. (Think about that: Opi Panye—a World Games-level player—is selfless enough to keep the disc moving without wasting time looking downfield first.)
Generally, the tenets of Hex offense align with those of point five frisbee. One of the three principles of Hex is Keep the disc moving. But in my experience, when people think of Hex they first and foremost think of...the hex—in other words, the shape. But point five frisbee can be played regardless of your offense's shape. It works best with the whole team bought in, but even an individual player can choose to play with a "point five" mindset regardless (somewhat) of their team's system.
In his book The Ultimate Resource, Travis Norsen also touches on similar concepts. He says of his "Flow" offense that:
everything else about the approach follows from the axiom of keeping the disc moving continuously so the defense can never set up.
And uses the term initiative to describe the offense's advantage when they play with enough speed to stay ahead of the defense:
The fundamental principle of Flow is simple: keep the disc moving quickly. Each pass forces the defense to react to a new situation for which they are not yet fully prepared or properly positioned. By taking and continuously maintaining the initiative — by which I just mean the advantageous state that arises from dictating the play and making the defense respond — the offense keeps the defense forever on its heels, and sets up a virtuous cycle in which each pass facilitates the next...
Why not just use “Flow”?
Most frisbee players have heard of flow4—"where every thrower has a wide-open receiver on stall zero, and the whole offence just smoothly moves up the field." I think flow and point five frisbee are closely related concepts.
Point five frisbee maintains flow—it's quick decisions that keep the offense ahead of the defense. And point five frisbee can generate flow—it's often (but not always!) fast decisions that create the offense's advantage in the first place.
You can have point five frisbee without flow—see Opi Payne generating a quick assist after a stoppage (or Travis Dunn in the article linked above). You can also have flow without point five frisbee—but your flow might end up petering out early.
But perhaps most importantly, even though we already have the term "flow", I like point five frisbee because it tells us what we need to do. "Flow" describes what it looks like; "point five frisbee" gives us an idea of what we need to do to make it happen.
The challenge of cutting
In my experience, the harder part of "point five frisbee" is the cutting, not the throwing. It's relatively easy for one person to decide for themselves to try to throw the disc as soon as possible after they catch it. But if they look up to see all of their teammates standing still and covered, there's not much that thrower can do. (Basketball is a little different in this sense. The smaller court and larger amount of help defense means players will often be open for a pass even without needing to time their cut perfectly. Not to mention the dribbling option.)
Having a system, whether it's Hex or the Fury offense, helps here. The Fury handlers obviously have experience timing their cut upfield for the return pass.
But in any system, we still have to challenge ourselves as cutters to start moving early. I find it easy (mentally) to remember to be quick with the disc as a pass is in the air towards me. It's much harder to remember to start my cut when the disc is in the air towards someone else. Mentally fighting against that instinctual laziness is important for the development of 'point five' cutting skills.
Dylan
Dylan Freechild, as I've pointed out before, is one of the most successful men's division players of the last decade. He shared some thoughts on his playing style on a late 2024 episode of the Pod Practice podcast.
Here's what Dylan says about why he makes the decision he makes in the clip they’re watching together (edited slightly so it reads smoothly):
Chris [the person defending Dylan] does a fine job here, but he's already slowing up into a mark. I'm catching the disc looking at Owen [a teammate], so I'm just going to continue to run at Owen, and Chris is gonna be a half-beat behind.
I just think I lose that advantage if I turn upfield, even if I turn upfield for half a second.
[...]
I don't really beat Chris here in any way, shape, or form, but Chris has to think the whole time, what am I gonna do next? and everyone else downfield has to think what is gonna happen next? What I've been working on with Mica is sometimes he gets the disc to restart the count and then he gives the defense two or three seconds to reassess what's gonna happen next.
The commitment to that “point five” mentality is one factor5 that sets Dylan apart.
Fury redux
Before we go, let's look at one more hint we have about San Francisco Fury's offense. I was struck by Fury coach Matty Tsang's comments in this timeout during the 2024 championship game:
Here’s the key moment:
We're still looking for good passes—look for tempo passes.
It can be hard to parse what someone is saying when we're on the outside looking in, and not immersed in the team's culture and lingo. But it sure sounds like he's saying that there's something called "good" passes, and there's something called "tempo" passes, and tempo passes are the ones you should prefer. Don't wait for the perfect option. Doing so just gives the defense time to make sure that perfect option never has the chance to exist.
Tsang's comments echo the phrasing Mike Prada uses in Spaced Out:
The Point Five Mentality requires players to move constantly and prioritize instant shoot/pass/drive decisions over optimal ones...
Perfect, as defined by taking one’s time to get their [shooting] form exactly right, has always been the enemy of good—i.e., getting the shot off at all.
What we've seen, across basketball, soccer, ultimate, etc., is that "good option against a prepared defense" is an inferior way to play compared to "slightly-less-good option against a scrambling defense".
Some tenets of point five frisbee:
Aim to make a throwing decision within 0.5 seconds (this is an ideal, and won't happen on all, or even most, of your touches)
Learn to read the defense—to think about who you're planning to throw to—before you even catch the disc.
Cut for throwers who are looking to throw as soon as they catch it.
Every time the disc moves, defenders are out of position. Quick disc movement maintains the offense's advantage
Stress the defense by forcing them to adjust, and adjust, and adjust until it becomes too much for them to keep up.
It's often better to throw a stall zero dish pass than to waste time pivoting to face downfield.
Develop skills that enable point five frisbee—e.g. catching and being ready to throw as soon as possible; quick-release wrist-only backhands; faster pivoting; etc.
Learn to get through your reads quicker—if you look at one receiver and don't throw to them, immediately look to a different option6.
Final thoughts
Point five frisbee is an offensive philosophy that highlights a mental approach, not a structure. Whether you play horizontal, vertical, shredding, or Hex offense you can use the point five principle to make your offense more effective.
Having more players in the backfield, as in a Hex or horizontal offense, might make it easier since there are more players available to cut upfield for a quick dish. But the example highlighted in Start considering your options as early as possible shows how a point five mentality can unlock a vertical stack offense too. Prada makes a similar point in Spaced Out:
It’s important to note that Point Five is not a system, position, set play, or even style of play. It is a mindset for players to live by, measured by an actual number to reinforce the larger goal of making quick, dynamic, and collaborative decisions on the court. [emphasis added by me]
Steph Curry, who is better at basketball than any human has ever been at ultimate frisbee, thinks that taking one whole second to make a decision is akin to letting a grenade blow up in your face. We ultimate players should care just as much about playing offense with a pace the defense can't match.
Actually I started writing this article over a year ago so maybe I’ve been hearing it for longer than just “recently”…
She even fits in a gratuitous pump fake!
I realize that I'm defending *this particular throw* and the commenter was making a comment about “Hex”. But they commented on a video about this particular throw, so I think it's a fair rebuttal.
As a general concept, separate from the name of Travis N’s offense
among many, to be sure
Unless, perhaps, you see something specific that tells you they’re about to get open
As with any sport, when the offense has the advantage... "indecision is the worst decision".
Amen!