I still think it's crazy you're not imitating Manu and Dylan

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In my earlier post Cultural insanities in frisbee, one of the insanities I listed was "Not trying to run more give-and-gos". Here's what I said about it at the time:

The Cardenas twins and Colombian frisbee came out of seemingly nowhere a number of years ago, and have since won US National Championships (Molly Brown in 2022), WUCC championships (Revolution in 2022), and PUL championships (RevoPro never lost a game in the PUL, if I recall correctly)¹. Brute Squad's 2023 US National Championship was led by Levke Walczak, who played with Revolution at the 2022 WUCC and has a very similar style.

So why aren't the PUL and WUL bursting with players trying to imitate their style? I do think we've seen some progress in this area, but nowhere near as much as I'd expect given the success of those teams.

Most items in the "insanities" article had been the focus of a previous post on this blog, but "more give and gos" hadn't gotten that same treatment. So, partially inspired by some recent events, here's a longer version of my argument.

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Women's division — Manu (and Valeria and Levke)

In the women's division, San Francisco Fury won the championship in 2021. In 2022, they lost in the finals to a Denver Molly Brown team led by Manu and Valeria Cardenas. In 2023, they lost in semis to a Boston Brute Squad team led by Levke Walczak. In 2024, they won the championship again.

And at the 2022 World Ultimate Club Championships, they lost in the finals to a Medellin Revolution team led by Manu Cardenas, Valeria Cardenas, and Levke Walczak.

Fury hasn't lost a game that's mattered in FOUR years except to teams with Manu/Vale/Levke.

If you're trying to win in the women's club division, you should either be imitating Fury or imitating Manu/Vale/Levke.

I think it would be quite hard to imitate Fury—it would take a lot of very good players who are very committed to learning a team-wide, tempo-based offensive system. But any single player, no matter what team they're on, can start to adopt a small-ball, always-moving, give-and-go style for themselves.

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Men's division — Dylan

In the men's division, a lot has been made of the fact that no team has more than one championship since 2016 (see, for example, The Breakside's Nationals Preview post or this discussion on Pod Practice).

And while no team has won twice in that period, there are a small number of players who've won twice with different teams*. One of them, Dylan Freechild, is known for his distinctive offensive style, which like Manu's is a small, quick, give-and-go heavy offense. (*At least I assume there are a few? Dylan's actually the only one I know of for sure.)

Dylan was on the Pod Practice podcast after winning nationals, and the topic of his style came up a few times:

At one point, Mike Lun asks him:

Why do you think it is that you do that so naturally...is this something you're able to convey to other players? I don't even see many of your teammates over the years do this as consistently as you do...

Dylan gives a very humble answer, saying, essentially, that he's not even sure it is a good style (He later says "If I could throw like Mica [Glass], maybe I would also stop and hold the frisbee").

Lun later says Freechild's style of play is "a hard thing to get people to key into", though he doesn't explain exactly why he feels that way.

Above I argued it'll be easier to imitate Manu than to imitate San Francisco Fury. I'd make a similar argument about the point Dylan makes here: imitating Freechild is much easier than becoming one of the best deep throwers in the world.

Lun brings the same topic up again later:

Do you think that's something that's unique to you because of your skillset, or do you think anybody can do that?

Dylan says:

I think anyone could do it. I mean...yeah...I think anyone can do it. Why couldn't anyone do it?

Good question, Dylan.

Lun ends the segment by pointing out how Dylan's style is "contagious", in the way some of his Rhino Slam! teammates adopted that style more this year than they had previously. But, look, you don't have to literally play with Dylan Freechild to learn to play like Dylan Freechild. Whoever you are, wherever you are, you can just...start doing it.

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But seriously...why doesn't everyone do it?

In my opinion, two factors account for most of why more people don't copy Manu's style.

First, peer pressure. It can take some bravery to play in a style different from that of everyone around you. You have to really trust yourself that you're making the right decision. As you adopt a new style, you may get worse before you get better, and you have to trust yourself to stick with it, even if people start making comments about you.

Second, people just...don't care about frisbee that much. There just aren't enough people out there who are obsessed with trying to find the best way to win frisbee games. (Statistically, this is especially true in the women's division, as a smaller total player pool means a proportionally smaller pool of obsessed players.)

Changing styles is easier when you're obsessed with winning—you're down to do what it takes, even if it means investing time in building new skills. Too many players, in my opinion, fall into a "sunk cost fallacy" type of thinking—if I'm already good at the style I currently play, and I spent so much time getting good at it, why should I start over—"wasting" the time I've already put in—and make a new investment in learning a new style?

And these two factors are mutually reinforcing: if you're not totally obsessed with doing whatever it takes to win more frisbee games, you'll be less willing to brave the social awkwardness of playing a different style from everyone around you.

Other small factors may also play a role:

• The "great thrower" mindset that Dylan Freechild mentioned. If you're an uber-elite thrower, even I can admit there's not that much benefit to be gained from switching your style. And if you're not an elite thrower, you may watch elite throwers and be impressed and model your game after them. They're effective, so why shouldn't I copy them? But I think this is, for most people, the wrong choice. It's easier to successfully play like Dylan than like Jimmy Mickle.

• To some extent, I agree that it's just harder. It takes a certain "always on" mindset to look to attack as a cutter immediately after throwing the disc, and do that over and over until you score.

• And finally, it takes at least a little bit of buy-in from your teammates to make Manu-style work. I've certainly been in moments on the field where I've thought to myself: I'm not going to bother give-and-going because I know the receiver I'm throwing to won't look to give it back to me. But this is a fixable problem, as many of my friends do know my style and will look for me when I do my things.

In fairness to frisbee players, in the past ~30 years we've also seen style revolutions in professional baseball (Moneyball, extreme defensive shifts which are now outlawed), basketball (3 pointers), and American football (4th downs). These revolutions all took longer than you might expect for leagues that do have a fair proportion of people obsessed with perfection, so perhaps our frisbee community isn't doing all that bad in comparison.

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Rvee

I'd like to shout out Vancouver Red Flag's Rvee Brillantes, who recently came in second in Ultiworld's Breakout Player of the Year vote. I watched a Red Flag game for an article I never got around to finishing, and texted a friend afterwards: "#12 (Brillantes) looks like she's trying to be Manu Cardenas. And is not all that bad at it to be honest."

It wouldn't surprise me if she becomes one of the best players in the division a few years from now.

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Final thoughts

For the record:

• Yes, I model my game after Dylan and Manu (with my own unique skills mixed in).

• Yes, "give and go" is a core philosophy of the college team I coach.

• And yes, I field pulls the way the Cardenas twins do, too.

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PS, for anyone who isn't already familiar with their style, here's Dylan's Callahan video (there are some good clips of him in the Pod Practice interview embedded above, too) and here's a Hive Ultimate video of Manu shredding a defense.

1. RevoPro stopped playing in the PUL, but the Cardenas twins joined NY Gridlock in 2024 and won the championship again.