This might be my all-time favorite post of yours. It's definitely a point I agree with (it's basically the theme of "the ultimate resource"!) but "the best offense is no offense" is such a beautifully dramatic way to put it, and the NBA connections are super interesting and new to me.
I think I would just want to reinforce that a huge and essential component of the "individual skills" teams should probably be focusing more on (instead of scripted "systems") are not physical, but mental/cognitive. Players need to learn (through trial-and-error and with the help of constructive feedback from coaches) to face and look the right direction, see the right things, see more things, read the game, recognize opportunities to interact with teammates, recognize opportunities to stay out of teammates' way, and generally make good decisions. So about 90% of practice time should be spent on small-sided, not-fully-scripted activities (like the 3v3 you mention, and of course I also love keepaway variants) where players are actually practicing and developing these crucial cognitive skills (along with, of course, their physical skills). If practice time usually looks like that, then "just go play good frisbee" is 100% sufficient as an offensive system. Whereas if practice time is instead 90% scripted drills (working on physical skills, but with no decision-making element), forget about it. "Just go play" will be horribly inadequate because the players won't actually know how to play... and no "system" will save them.
Yeah, I definitely don't claim to be the only person in the frisbee world who's had these thoughts before. Just helping spread the gospel :) Although I believe I'm the first one to make the connection between those two podcasts I mention in the first section. That's my little contribution to the edge of the (frisbee) knowledge frontier today:
love this post. sadly can’t respond as long as I’d like at the moment but in short:
- I completely agree! Systems can be good, but too often are a crutch or can even be limiting, especially depending on the team/level. And starting with a system without much other experience limits development of creative problem-solving, both as a team as in individuals.
- the take-home message of “get good” is a good one. too many folks want to system the problems away, when it’s often a skill thing. There’s no magic system.
- I would gently push back a little here on the idea that these teams (and the NBA teams) just play unscripted. Each of them has goals of what they want their offense to do. Maybe that’s where they attack from, what kinds of shots they want to find, etc. Broad, but a North Star to base their “random” offense around. Akin to a jazz group setting a key and some drums down before improv-ing away.
Love your stuff, thank you for expressing these great thoughts!
People often comment to add things that I *almost* put into the post (see last week's post for another example), and your last bullet point is another example. I almosttt added a sentence or two about "conceptual basketball" — that's the basketball-world term for the concept you're describing, if you haven't heard it already. (A term I learned from a frisbee coach myself)
So, yeah, I pretty much agree with you completely and will probably write more about it someday.
I am looking forward to your take on it. I have a draft started that will come out… someday.. that talks about this to a degree. The idea that it’s more important to be on the same page than be “right” in a more technical and maybe arbitrary way. This article of yours rings so many important thoughts in that vein I may link it as required reading. Great work!
"Same page not right page" was verbatim something my club team would use at most trainings and games last year, I have a note to write something about this as well, very interested to see what angles you two take
I like this in concept, but intuitively it feels a little off to me. I noticed that when I play in a high level mini game without a system, players are double cutting a lot. But if we talk on the line to call a string, or general idea of how we want to cut, from the back or front then fewer double cuts happen. Even the "no system" offenses like Truck stop are operating in a vert stack cutting from the front and getting the disc on the breakside. Maybe that was never whiteboarded (which is fascinating to me) but I would argue its implicitly understood in each offensive players mind.
I do really like your points about randomness and how these systems are generated. Let great players learn what works best. I do think when we stick to the systems no matter what defense is doing, then that is bad offense. Offense should be able to adapt, and counter attack the defense.
Yeah you make some good points, it's definitely not total chaos. And definitely agree on the "implicitly understood in each offensive players mind." part. I'm pretty sure I've used the phrase "shared mental models" on this blog before. (Though, one small clarification -- Truck's definitely not *always* in a vert stack shape. See some of the examples in the Hive video)
Coincidentally, I started writing an article the other day titled "in praise of double cutting". It's nice to not double cut, but I've also experienced SOOO many times where a player just doesn't cut because it's not their "turn", even though the defense is gifting them a perfect angle to the open space. Truck double cuts sometimes. But they're still the best offense in frisbee. I think double cutting might just be something we should accept as a part of good offense that balances predictability and chaos. I also think it's possible to not double cut (or at least minimize double cutting) based on awareness of your fellow cutters instead of having to rely on everyone knowing whose turn it is. I think I can find at least
Another angle worth mentioning: in the pod, Jake talks about the extent to which Brown players are able to learn to work together after practicing together ~4 times a week for ~4 years. If it's your first time playing mini with someone, even if you're both relatively skilled, then yeah, having a mini-system might be the best we can do. But I'd like to believe players who spend tons of time playing together can get somewhere better than that.
Loved this! I've been coaching my team close to this way for the past couple of years. One thing I am curious about is how players can become comfortable with constant feedback on what's going wrong without the perception of better players constantly yelling at and criticizing the rest of the team. It seems to me like that's the most difficult part of all this: the atmosphere of critique and improvement without the negativity and lower player esteem.
That's an interesting question, and definitely not something I thought about directly while I was writing this particular article (but definitely something I think about in general).
Jake actually talks a lot about feedback in the first half or so of his Pod Practice podcast, so I'd definitely suggest listening to that if you haven't already.
I personally am I super calm/analytical person, so I think this sort of learning process works well for me. But I know that might not be true of everyone. Maybe one way to think about it is, as a coach of a team like this, you might spend less time diagramming plays, but instead one of your critical roles is to help your players grow their emotional intelligence to become better able to both give and receive non-judgmental feedback.
I'll admit I'm not currently part of any teams (whether coaching or playing) that are doing this, so I'm just spitballing some ideas here, not talking from experience. If anything I'm interested to hear what ends up working for you :)
This might be my all-time favorite post of yours. It's definitely a point I agree with (it's basically the theme of "the ultimate resource"!) but "the best offense is no offense" is such a beautifully dramatic way to put it, and the NBA connections are super interesting and new to me.
I think I would just want to reinforce that a huge and essential component of the "individual skills" teams should probably be focusing more on (instead of scripted "systems") are not physical, but mental/cognitive. Players need to learn (through trial-and-error and with the help of constructive feedback from coaches) to face and look the right direction, see the right things, see more things, read the game, recognize opportunities to interact with teammates, recognize opportunities to stay out of teammates' way, and generally make good decisions. So about 90% of practice time should be spent on small-sided, not-fully-scripted activities (like the 3v3 you mention, and of course I also love keepaway variants) where players are actually practicing and developing these crucial cognitive skills (along with, of course, their physical skills). If practice time usually looks like that, then "just go play good frisbee" is 100% sufficient as an offensive system. Whereas if practice time is instead 90% scripted drills (working on physical skills, but with no decision-making element), forget about it. "Just go play" will be horribly inadequate because the players won't actually know how to play... and no "system" will save them.
Anyway, thanks for the spectacular post!
Thanks Travis!
Yeah, I definitely don't claim to be the only person in the frisbee world who's had these thoughts before. Just helping spread the gospel :) Although I believe I'm the first one to make the connection between those two podcasts I mention in the first section. That's my little contribution to the edge of the (frisbee) knowledge frontier today:
https://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/
love this post. sadly can’t respond as long as I’d like at the moment but in short:
- I completely agree! Systems can be good, but too often are a crutch or can even be limiting, especially depending on the team/level. And starting with a system without much other experience limits development of creative problem-solving, both as a team as in individuals.
- the take-home message of “get good” is a good one. too many folks want to system the problems away, when it’s often a skill thing. There’s no magic system.
- I would gently push back a little here on the idea that these teams (and the NBA teams) just play unscripted. Each of them has goals of what they want their offense to do. Maybe that’s where they attack from, what kinds of shots they want to find, etc. Broad, but a North Star to base their “random” offense around. Akin to a jazz group setting a key and some drums down before improv-ing away.
Love your stuff, thank you for expressing these great thoughts!
Thanks!
People often comment to add things that I *almost* put into the post (see last week's post for another example), and your last bullet point is another example. I almosttt added a sentence or two about "conceptual basketball" — that's the basketball-world term for the concept you're describing, if you haven't heard it already. (A term I learned from a frisbee coach myself)
So, yeah, I pretty much agree with you completely and will probably write more about it someday.
I am looking forward to your take on it. I have a draft started that will come out… someday.. that talks about this to a degree. The idea that it’s more important to be on the same page than be “right” in a more technical and maybe arbitrary way. This article of yours rings so many important thoughts in that vein I may link it as required reading. Great work!
"Same page not right page" was verbatim something my club team would use at most trainings and games last year, I have a note to write something about this as well, very interested to see what angles you two take
it’s an easy thought but it works against what a lot of competitors and frisbee nerds like me internalize. it’s an exciting thought!
I like this in concept, but intuitively it feels a little off to me. I noticed that when I play in a high level mini game without a system, players are double cutting a lot. But if we talk on the line to call a string, or general idea of how we want to cut, from the back or front then fewer double cuts happen. Even the "no system" offenses like Truck stop are operating in a vert stack cutting from the front and getting the disc on the breakside. Maybe that was never whiteboarded (which is fascinating to me) but I would argue its implicitly understood in each offensive players mind.
I do really like your points about randomness and how these systems are generated. Let great players learn what works best. I do think when we stick to the systems no matter what defense is doing, then that is bad offense. Offense should be able to adapt, and counter attack the defense.
Yeah you make some good points, it's definitely not total chaos. And definitely agree on the "implicitly understood in each offensive players mind." part. I'm pretty sure I've used the phrase "shared mental models" on this blog before. (Though, one small clarification -- Truck's definitely not *always* in a vert stack shape. See some of the examples in the Hive video)
Coincidentally, I started writing an article the other day titled "in praise of double cutting". It's nice to not double cut, but I've also experienced SOOO many times where a player just doesn't cut because it's not their "turn", even though the defense is gifting them a perfect angle to the open space. Truck double cuts sometimes. But they're still the best offense in frisbee. I think double cutting might just be something we should accept as a part of good offense that balances predictability and chaos. I also think it's possible to not double cut (or at least minimize double cutting) based on awareness of your fellow cutters instead of having to rely on everyone knowing whose turn it is. I think I can find at least
Another angle worth mentioning: in the pod, Jake talks about the extent to which Brown players are able to learn to work together after practicing together ~4 times a week for ~4 years. If it's your first time playing mini with someone, even if you're both relatively skilled, then yeah, having a mini-system might be the best we can do. But I'd like to believe players who spend tons of time playing together can get somewhere better than that.
Great takes, and thanks for the response!
Loved this! I've been coaching my team close to this way for the past couple of years. One thing I am curious about is how players can become comfortable with constant feedback on what's going wrong without the perception of better players constantly yelling at and criticizing the rest of the team. It seems to me like that's the most difficult part of all this: the atmosphere of critique and improvement without the negativity and lower player esteem.
That's an interesting question, and definitely not something I thought about directly while I was writing this particular article (but definitely something I think about in general).
Jake actually talks a lot about feedback in the first half or so of his Pod Practice podcast, so I'd definitely suggest listening to that if you haven't already.
I personally am I super calm/analytical person, so I think this sort of learning process works well for me. But I know that might not be true of everyone. Maybe one way to think about it is, as a coach of a team like this, you might spend less time diagramming plays, but instead one of your critical roles is to help your players grow their emotional intelligence to become better able to both give and receive non-judgmental feedback.
I'll admit I'm not currently part of any teams (whether coaching or playing) that are doing this, so I'm just spitballing some ideas here, not talking from experience. If anything I'm interested to hear what ends up working for you :)