Interesting discussion... I basically agree with how you put it at the end. Yes, you shouldn't be *obsessed* with turning inwards or starting dump/reset cuts from behind so you can catch them facing forward. I would say those two rules of thumb have more the status of "all other things being equal, this is better" rather than absolute dogmas that one should be obsessed with. But even with that status I think they are both important principles that capture something that many many players do that is sub-ideal and can and should be fixed, and so I wouldn't want to see those principles dismissed.
If I understand correctly, you're not dismissing them, so much as suggesting that they are applications of something more fundamental, namely, "considering your options as soon as possible". And I basically agree with that, but have the feeling that it misses something important. Namely: which options? For me, it's crucial that just as a matter of biological fact you can only consider options that you can see and you can only see things that you are facing. So the first options you *will* consider are the ones (if any) you're facing. The example you highlight here is a nice example of a situation where the receiver doesn't really have any immediately-promising options in the direction he's moving, so he does a great job of recognizing this early and turning, before even completing the catch, to start looking for options in a different direction. That's awesome and definitely deserves to be highlighted as another concrete way to achieve quick disc movement.
But I guess I would just want to note that it's only a good play because "the receiver doesn't really have any immediately-promising options in the direction he's moving". If, for example, the central handler (directly behind where the centering IO flick gets caught by TD) had anticipated that completion, shaken her defender, and was wide open facing forward in juicy power position, I think TD should throw to her immediately instead of doing the "jump pivot" rotating-to-face-forward-while-in-the-air thing. Turning away from that wide-open positive option to instead look upfield -- even if you start turning to look upfield super early/quickly -- is a bad idea... in general ... even though in this particular situation it might have led to the same near-immediate score that in fact happened. It's bad in general because often if you turn upfield there won't be an immediate scoring option, and then you've stagnated the flow.
So I guess I would formulate the principle here like this. Speed of play is massively valuable, so if there is a beneficial option open immediately, take it (and this will naturally be an option that you are already facing); if not, you'll have to turn and face and find some beneficial options, so do that as early/quickly as possible (and by rotating in the direction that is most likely to bring the most potential options into view most quickly).
I feel like the jump pivot goes against the ultimate cliche of "catch before you think about the throw." Building a habit of jump pivoting every time you catch an under pass could take away focus from the catch and follows a similar reasoning to why I prefer players don't "milk" passes to jump into the endzone.
I think I get what you're saying. Here's how I look at it...I think in sports in general (and other games like chess) there's this idea that "masters can break the rules that we teach to novice players"
For example, the first thing my dad taught me when I started playing basketball in 3rd grade was to pass the ball *before* I got double-teamed. But LeBron or Jokic will let themselves get double teamed on purpose because it means one of their teammates will be even more open.
Or in chess (sorry if this example is going to make no sense), no one would teach a novice to push their h-pawn at the beginning of the game, but Magnus Carlsen can do it effectively because it throws his opponents off even more than it hurts him.
I think a jump pivot is the same...I wouldn't teach my middle school team to do it before they've mastered other fundamentals! But I think if someone wants to be effective against Nationals-level opponents, they need to be good enough at catching/field sense to comfortably do stuff like this on the regular.
Yeah I agree that having the mechanics and field vision to jump pivot consistently are great for players to have. But I don’t think I would package it as a prescribed motion to drill with players, which I currently do with inward turning. Inward turning has a much lower skill requirement and is pretty much a strict improvement over outward turning. Obviously knowing which one to do based on the situation is ideal but as I think inward turning is a great default choice for how simple it is to do and the vision that it grants.
Hello both, sorry to revive this after months but I was thinking of a semi related idea. I think the dichotomy between “think about catch before throw” and “consider options as quickly as possible” is maybe a little false. I think there are some catches where you need to think a lot (usually about where the defender is to seal them off or what the wind is like) and some catches where you can do what LT suggests. And the part of the skill of catching that emerges is your body knowing when to do what. Inward turning or more generally facing the same way as you catch is a way to consider options as quickly as possible even when concentrating a lot on the catch (eg even catching a heavily contested upline and looking for the huck after).
The flip side is as a thrower, you should be throwing people into spots where they face the optimal way after the catch. If someone is slashing across the middle of the field from break to force side and is wide open, you probably want to throw a little ahead of them vertically, so they catch the disc facing forward.
Interesting discussion... I basically agree with how you put it at the end. Yes, you shouldn't be *obsessed* with turning inwards or starting dump/reset cuts from behind so you can catch them facing forward. I would say those two rules of thumb have more the status of "all other things being equal, this is better" rather than absolute dogmas that one should be obsessed with. But even with that status I think they are both important principles that capture something that many many players do that is sub-ideal and can and should be fixed, and so I wouldn't want to see those principles dismissed.
If I understand correctly, you're not dismissing them, so much as suggesting that they are applications of something more fundamental, namely, "considering your options as soon as possible". And I basically agree with that, but have the feeling that it misses something important. Namely: which options? For me, it's crucial that just as a matter of biological fact you can only consider options that you can see and you can only see things that you are facing. So the first options you *will* consider are the ones (if any) you're facing. The example you highlight here is a nice example of a situation where the receiver doesn't really have any immediately-promising options in the direction he's moving, so he does a great job of recognizing this early and turning, before even completing the catch, to start looking for options in a different direction. That's awesome and definitely deserves to be highlighted as another concrete way to achieve quick disc movement.
But I guess I would just want to note that it's only a good play because "the receiver doesn't really have any immediately-promising options in the direction he's moving". If, for example, the central handler (directly behind where the centering IO flick gets caught by TD) had anticipated that completion, shaken her defender, and was wide open facing forward in juicy power position, I think TD should throw to her immediately instead of doing the "jump pivot" rotating-to-face-forward-while-in-the-air thing. Turning away from that wide-open positive option to instead look upfield -- even if you start turning to look upfield super early/quickly -- is a bad idea... in general ... even though in this particular situation it might have led to the same near-immediate score that in fact happened. It's bad in general because often if you turn upfield there won't be an immediate scoring option, and then you've stagnated the flow.
So I guess I would formulate the principle here like this. Speed of play is massively valuable, so if there is a beneficial option open immediately, take it (and this will naturally be an option that you are already facing); if not, you'll have to turn and face and find some beneficial options, so do that as early/quickly as possible (and by rotating in the direction that is most likely to bring the most potential options into view most quickly).
I feel like the jump pivot goes against the ultimate cliche of "catch before you think about the throw." Building a habit of jump pivoting every time you catch an under pass could take away focus from the catch and follows a similar reasoning to why I prefer players don't "milk" passes to jump into the endzone.
I think I get what you're saying. Here's how I look at it...I think in sports in general (and other games like chess) there's this idea that "masters can break the rules that we teach to novice players"
For example, the first thing my dad taught me when I started playing basketball in 3rd grade was to pass the ball *before* I got double-teamed. But LeBron or Jokic will let themselves get double teamed on purpose because it means one of their teammates will be even more open.
Or in chess (sorry if this example is going to make no sense), no one would teach a novice to push their h-pawn at the beginning of the game, but Magnus Carlsen can do it effectively because it throws his opponents off even more than it hurts him.
I think a jump pivot is the same...I wouldn't teach my middle school team to do it before they've mastered other fundamentals! But I think if someone wants to be effective against Nationals-level opponents, they need to be good enough at catching/field sense to comfortably do stuff like this on the regular.
Thoughts?
Yeah I agree that having the mechanics and field vision to jump pivot consistently are great for players to have. But I don’t think I would package it as a prescribed motion to drill with players, which I currently do with inward turning. Inward turning has a much lower skill requirement and is pretty much a strict improvement over outward turning. Obviously knowing which one to do based on the situation is ideal but as I think inward turning is a great default choice for how simple it is to do and the vision that it grants.
Hello both, sorry to revive this after months but I was thinking of a semi related idea. I think the dichotomy between “think about catch before throw” and “consider options as quickly as possible” is maybe a little false. I think there are some catches where you need to think a lot (usually about where the defender is to seal them off or what the wind is like) and some catches where you can do what LT suggests. And the part of the skill of catching that emerges is your body knowing when to do what. Inward turning or more generally facing the same way as you catch is a way to consider options as quickly as possible even when concentrating a lot on the catch (eg even catching a heavily contested upline and looking for the huck after).
The flip side is as a thrower, you should be throwing people into spots where they face the optimal way after the catch. If someone is slashing across the middle of the field from break to force side and is wide open, you probably want to throw a little ahead of them vertically, so they catch the disc facing forward.